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#11115951 May 31, 2015 at 04:13 PM
DPS-30,000
4 Posts
Hello, as the title suggests, I'm curious about the finer points of a recluse nanny run, like what your role is specifically, are you throwing out heals and APB to rebuff or is it to essentially tank and pull aggro so the people doing the DPS don't die.

Any info would be appreciated

Cheers

J

+1
#11117277 Jun 01, 2015 at 12:08 AM · Edited over 5 years ago
DPS Admins
31 Posts

Recluse Nannies (in particular the commonly used science captain variants) pad your DPS in a number of ways, including:

1. Debuffing:

- Spamming and stacking APB on all targets from its elite pets.

- Sensor scanning important targets such as the transformer and the sphere spawns being hit by the DPSer being carried.

- Various debuffs through weapons fire (beta, pen mods, disruptor procs, kemo etc)

2. Crowd Control:

- Gravity-welling the sphere spawns on both sides of the middle area into one giant ball. This also significantly increases the DPS of DBB builds by ensuring all targets remain in their firing arc. Theses spheres are then heavily debuffed by sensor scan, in addition to the pet APB spam. The carried DPSer will also throw it's AOE dmg abilities (tetryon cascade, iso charge, web breaker, nadion bombs, vortex etc) on these spheres to obtain immense amounts of spike dmg (when combined with a short run time - this translates to a lot of "measured" DPS - note this is mostly burst dmg and not sustainable in normal circumstances).

- Throwing the black hole console on the gravity welled spheres - this prevents them from firing and moving for a while - so the carried DPSer can move in and do its thing without risking its butt.

- Doff abilities also allow the recluse to reduce the damage dealt by targets affected by its sensor scan - more cheesy riskless DPS for the carried player :)

- Throw abilities like tyken's rift on the tac cube - this can shut down / weaken the NPC making it much easier to kill off this single target at the end (time taken firing at single target is a BIG DPS loss). In addition the recluse may use drain and shield stripping abilities to enhance this effect - which also improves the effect of [pen] weapons and beta spam that only buffs hull damage.

3. Healing:

- Usually involves applying various shield and hull heals to the carried DPSer. This obviously helps him/her survive extremely good GDFs (ie. you can now load heavier cheese on the run), but also allows the carried DPSers to strip its build bare of healing boff abilities (e.g. sci heals), consoles (e.g. valdore) and traits, and swap in DPS increasing ones.

- Throwing the undine shield bubble in the middle to protect the carried DPSer , so he/she doesn't get raped by the spheres, tac cube and gate. In effect it also allows players to tank dangerous (but high DPS producing) targets such as the gate and spheres.

4. Console Stacking

- Each recluse comes with a console that can give 3 stacks of +33% Cat 2 dmg buff to a carried player for 5 secs (obviously you have twice this amount if you have 2 nannies - think of it as having almost 4 additional stacks of alpha happening at the same time for 5 secs). These are usually activated when significant spike dmg is being done (to maximise the amplification of measured DPS). The targets of the console are a bit random, but record runs are inevitably the lucky runs where the consoles stack well.

5. Other Support:

- Activating team batteries to boost weapons and aux power during key DPS cycles for the carried player.

- Activating abilities such as photonic fleet and nimbus to draw aggro, help kill things faster and provide more heals at key stages.

- Buff the survivability and DPS of other supporting players in the team, so they can more effectively support the carried player and kill the map faster to maximise the apparent DPS from spike dmg.

- Huddling close to the carried player to ensure maximum efficiency of the iconian three set buff sharing.

- Running the 4 pc iconian set to buff the team using the active power. The 4 pc includes relatively inferior warp core and engine - it is detrimental to DPS if the full set is equipped by the carried player [swapping out either the warp core or engine may boost DPS for the carried player]. As the duration of the active power is long enough that only 3 people in the team need to run it for a short run, this detriment is best borne by the nannies - so that the carried player can reap all the benefits and not partake in the costs.

So in summary, recluse nanny slaves do a ton of the hard work for you, so you have a relatively smooth and creamy cheese ride. The best thing of all of this? All their hard work and efforts are measured via your DPS meter - so you can claim ALL of it as your own and feel great about yourself :)

Give yourself a BIG fat slap on the back for a job well done! Be sure to show off your parse to the ignorant and innocent 10kers who will worship the ground you walk on :)

Edit: Don't forget to mention you have overcome an insurmountable "challenge" - that really helps get the fanboys going!

Disclaimer: I don't actually engage in or endorse the above practices any more, and neither do a number of other DPS admins. We recognise that many, if not the overwhelming majority, of people in the DPS community have spent considerable time, effort and money to improve their own piloting skills and build designs - in order to obtain a DPS record that is regarded as a personal achievement - with the expectation that others will compete honestly on a level playing field. It is disrespectful and outright insulting for others to then trample on these achievements by misappropriating a disproportionate amount of their team's performance and representing it as as their own. So shame yourself at your own risk.

I urge you to not be led astray by the ways of the DPS padders. They try to justify what they do by casting their activities as the pinnacle of "team play". But true team play involves maximising the performance of the entire team, not a single individual's performance. True team play does not require your teammates to sacrifice their own performance and that of the whole team, so that your measured performance appears greater than it actually is. Indeed, in the context of measuring individual performance, recluse nanny runs represent an extremely selfish style of gameplay, which does not accord with even the shallowest definitions of "team play". "The pinnacle of foul play" is a much more befitting term.

Join the ranks of the true DPSers by pulling your own weight in your runs, and help restore honour and integrity to the channels.

+7
#11117838 Jun 01, 2015 at 05:36 AM
DPS Communit...
11 Posts
reserved
+0
#11118988 Jun 01, 2015 at 11:42 AM
DPS-75,000
10 Posts
And this is why I set my record in a normal run, no recluses, no nonsense.
CLR—Infected Space[2:30]— Dmg(DPS) —Vel 11,208,739(74,725) - No recluses, no healers, just me tanking.

The game's best wiki.

Game's highest dps tank and all-time engineering dps record.
+3
#11119154 Jun 01, 2015 at 12:17 PM
DPS Communit...
11 Posts
me too :)
+1
#11119377 Jun 01, 2015 at 01:11 PM
DPS Admins
62 Posts
If you want honest competition you set your record without nannies. If you have some unnatural obsession with being at the top of the board even though you shouldn't be, or want to get yourself into a channel you don't belong in, then the nannies come out.
+2
#11120114 Jun 01, 2015 at 04:22 PM · Edited over 5 years ago
DPS-30,000
4 Posts
Thanks for the very detailed info, I was really just curious as there's very little info around.

I enjoy working to beat my personal best and this does seem a bit unfair, like you said, it seems to be mainly to pad out your numbers just to rise through the tables.

I'll stick to working out the correct timings for buffs and my piloting skills :)

Edit: I'll also point out that your disclaimer is brilliant, something that people should read before they consider doing this kind of run, and I'm glad that I asked as its stopped me doing something I may regret later down the line. Hell, I'm still shying away from 30k runs until I'm confident enough that I can hit it each time!
+2
#11121626 Jun 02, 2015 at 02:08 AM
DPS-PRIME
5 Posts
I believe with the new additional Solo ISA parse there shouldn't be an issue on Recluse nannies.

One of the ISA parse are for team parse. Therefore, in my opinion, all mechanics may be included, including the Recluse nannies. Since without Recluse nannies, you still have to factor in your team as well, including their buffs, debuffs, how fast they kill, etc.

With the Solo ISA, there is no doubt it is just your capability.
+0
#11121672 Jun 02, 2015 at 02:32 AM · Edited 5 years ago
DPS Admins
31 Posts
Unfortunately solo ISA has severe limitations (as an alternative to the main league table, the new solo table was a rather intellectually inept idea to begin with, if you think about it - it can be nothing more than a small side game to past time):

- How long do you want to beg on the channels for warpers to get a run going?

- How many people are actually capable of soloing ISA? Think about the channel as a whole not just yourself.

- How many ways are there to exploit DPS in a solo ISA? Let's bring in 4 tacs with me so they can buff me up with Tac Fleets whilst I complete the map by myself - so I get an advantage over everyone else who plays honestly.

- How many of the 4000 DPS members can be bothered or would be interested in doing something that takes so much longer vs the rewards you get in a normal ISA queue?

- How many people will be tempted to edit their numbers because there are no witnesses to confirm or deny their records?

- How does a solo ISA record relate to the current DPS channel structure? You want us to kick everyone out and retest everyone on their solo DPS?

- How are we going to invite new members from outside the channel if we can't parse them on a random standard pug run?

The list goes on....

The comparability and integrity of the main league table records are inextricably tied to the very core of the meaning and functionality of our channels - you take that away and we are all just wasting our time. Remember, it is you that we are inviting to our channel, not your team, it is your name that goes next to the record, not the name of everyone on your team.

There are many ways in which your team can affect your DPS, but nannies and recluse nannies in particular represent the single greatest distorting factor to comparability, and the single greatest threat to our channels. Other factors that buff everyone more or less equally are less of a concern. The actual DPS number does not matter, it is the relativity/comparability of records that is of most concern. Nanny runs inject a disproportionate amount of your team's performance into an ISA record, such that it is no longer valid as even a rough indicator of a player's ability when it is compared to other records achieved in typical channel runs.

Records from nanny runs have a place as valid DPS records, but not on the channel invite table and not where they are intermingled with the other 99% of records which have been achieved on a very different basis.


+2
#11122263 Jun 02, 2015 at 07:38 AM · Edited over 5 years ago
DPS Admins
62 Posts
"Solo" ISA can also be easily exploited and padded. You can have your team of warpers not warp, instead sit at the start point or stay cloak. They can at the very least give you TF/IF rotation and Iconian 4 Set damage buff, probably more I haven't really considered. Both of those are significant DPS increases and undetectable by a parse. Secondly its also an invalid measurement of your DPS as you have to build more for survivability than you would in any PvE content you normally run, lowering your DPS.

Solo ISA was a terrible idea that never should have seen the light of day.
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#11123566 Jun 02, 2015 at 02:03 PM
DPS-50,000
5 Posts
I don't see the point of doing a solo ISA. and totally not understand why it is in the tables.

Like Already stated this can easily be exploited and manipulated.

Want to know your own solo pure ship dps run a starbase 234 or do a decent partol with no helpers. that would give a reasonable solid solo ship DPS Score.

This solo ISA is simply for bragging rights and to show of. not that i mind that sort of thing but i would not give two cents about it.
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#11124387 Jun 02, 2015 at 05:48 PM
DPS-75,000
10 Posts
#11122263 #s wrote:

"Solo" ISA can also be easily exploited and padded. You can have your team of warpers not warp, instead sit at the start point or stay cloak. They can at the very least give you TF/IF rotation and Iconian 4 Set damage buff, probably more I haven't really considered. Both of those are significant DPS increases and undetectable by a parse. Secondly its also an invalid measurement of your DPS as you have to build more for survivability than you would in any PvE content you normally run, lowering your DPS.

Solo ISA was a terrible idea that never should have seen the light of day.



If we wanted to get dirty cheater with it...

Well, I thought of more problems with it, no need to post more ways to cheat the solo on a public forum. Point being, there's some obvious problems with relying on the solo ISA table, and there's no way to fix them via a CLR update.
CLR—Infected Space[2:30]— Dmg(DPS) —Vel 11,208,739(74,725) - No recluses, no healers, just me tanking.

The game's best wiki.

Game's highest dps tank and all-time engineering dps record.
+0
#11124664 Jun 02, 2015 at 07:20 PM
DPS-30,000
4 Posts
I agree Vel

I will point out that I've ran with one of the solo isa guys, and was a "warper" on his run, plus i believe he was recording, I trust his parse, but even if I could do the numbers necessary, I don't think its for me or the majority of aspiring DPS guys/gals.

The standard isa team run can vary so much unless you go in as a premade group where you know exactly who's using what. I'm still pretty certain my 2 highest runs were due to a miracle of everyone's buffs stacking up almost at the right time

Like the original post said, I was just curious, though didn't expect the small can of worms on reddit this morning. I've seen it come up as a request in the 30k channel a couple of times and wondered whether it was worth a shot, which us why i asked, it isn't for me personally :) I just want to go in and kill Borg quickly and efficiently, if my numbers go up, well, that's great, but I want to be able to repeat it without having to go in with a specific group.
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#11125736 Jun 03, 2015 at 04:37 AM · Edited over 5 years ago
DPS Admins
31 Posts

Update: I've been giving responses to a number of questions/statements that seem to come up often. I'm kinda a busy person, so I'll put them on public record so I don't need to repeat myself for the nth time. Hopefully, this will provide some much needed clarification on what our views are and why we have them.

Q1: Does this mean you want to ban recluse nanny records?

A1: No, we just want to separate them out [I'm talking about specialised nanny runs, not general support class builds] - so that we have a single table where everyone's DPS is assessed on a reasonably (not perfectly) consistent basis, for channel invite purposes. The number pushing can be done elsewhere. I like to think we are here to create and maintain a community where learning about how to DPS and sharing knowledge is the primary goal and objective. Having the top of the table being seen as accessable (as long as they put in the effort to improve their piloting skills and build design) by the members in the lower channels is very important. A table that members can use and trust to roughly gauge where they are in terms of relative performance against their peers helps tremendously in encouraging people to improve their skills. People should also not be pressured to forsake the basics of DPSing and be forced to focus on finding friends who can nanny them, nor should they be alienated from recognition at the top of our rankings simply because they can't or don't run in specialised scenarios. I literally shake my head when I see "lf 2 recluses for 30K channel tryout".

We tried the "anything goes" approach pre Delta, the top of the league was turned into a recluse carnival, admittedly I was one the culprits as well - things didn't work out very well, competition was stifled, people lost interest and effectively quit/did not participate in the league. The current league is trying to, and failing miserably at, accommodating two very different competitions, and it is having a detrimental effect on efforts to promote the type of community that the owners of the channels are trying to build. The disparity between the two competitions also gives too much opportunity for misconduct such as DPS shaming - Seriously, WTH is the purpose of telling someone in DPS public that your fleet support does 20K DPS (without disclosing the basis on which it was done) or telling a torpedo specialist giving out valid torp advice than he won't beat a certain recluse assisted torp record that way (and he wasn't even trying to)?

S2: Game XYZ allows all sorts of team play mechanics, what's different with STO?

A2: Nothing, team play is great and it's fine, but it can be done elsewhere (on a separate table for example). Preserving the integrity of the channel invite table is paramount in what we are primarily here to do. We are NOT here to mindlessly push out the biggest number using every underhanded practice or broken mechanic we can find, we don't simply operate a chart of big numbers as people in other games do, we are here to create and foster a community, to learn and share knowledge. The big numbers are simply a by-product of what we do - it is not the overriding objective that dictates how we do things. For those that are obsessed with big numbers, my advice is to go take turns throwing nadion bombs on debuffed spawns in Azure and parse yourself over 5 secs to get a few mil DPS - a record obtained in this way is just as valid as any other DPS record in the game, if standards are of no concern to you.

S3: I own a recluse, so I have some special unique insight on this whole issue. I also think you're just a recluse hater.

A3: I have three recluses (each on tac, sci and eng captains) fully decked out with more cheese than you can imagine in your wildest dreams. When I get bored I might also buy a few more so I have a complete set on all factions to access all their unique consoles and abilities. How many recluses do you have? If you don't at least have two I don't consider you a fellow recluse lover, those pets are so darn cute aren't they?

S4: You guys are just crying because you can't beat XYZ's recluse records and don't have a recluse team.

A4: In case you haven't figured out from A3, we have THE best recluses in the game, and some of the best pilots around. Many of us discovered and developed the nannying practices I outlined previously. We currently don't do specialised recluse runs simply because we take our duty as admins seriously and we feel obligated to do what is responsible and sensitive to the interests and expectations of the community as a whole, by way of setting examples for others.

Q5: Why do you want to restrict how people play this game? What gives you that right?

A5: We are proposing nothing of the sort. Everyone can still do what they have been doing, e.g. call and discuss nanny runs in the channels as they please, play in whatever builds or style as they choose. We are simply setting the standard on which invites to the channels should be based, in a fashion and manner that best promotes what the channel owners/administration have determined they want to achieve - and in this respect we have every right to do so.
+2
#11125782 Jun 03, 2015 at 05:03 AM
2 Posts
Who is "we"?
+0
#11125809 Jun 03, 2015 at 05:16 AM · Edited over 5 years ago
DPS Communit...
11 Posts
we = me, porch, #'s, alfie, bob, kam, ryan (in some points not in others) the ONLY member of the admin team who is not in agreement is felisean. after we had a 3 hour meeting (that was recorded) where we discussed this at length and had a vote which was 6- 1 (1 abstained)

so when alfie says "we" he is talking about an overwhelming majority of the dps admin team.
-1
#11125913 Jun 03, 2015 at 06:06 AM
DPS-75,000
2 Posts
After yesterday's discussion in one of the channels about Spencer's new personal best, I had some questions about what's considered nannying at this point.

Initially, I was under the impression that a "nanny recluse" was one that brought mediocre damage, but buffed and healed a selected member of the group in doing more damage. After Alfie's comments about my role in Spencer's run though, I feel I need some clarification.

Everybody who's flown with me knows that my Recluse does not heal other people, unless it's a byproduct of a heal I feel benefits me the most. The reason Spencer got any shield heals at all is that, for that night, I had improved tachyon beam slotted. I go back and forth between that and improved brace for impact in an odd cycle since I can't seem to settle on which I like better for survivability. My main that flies the Recluse (N'Mej), is KDF. That means I have no access to reciprocity. In a Recluse, I have no need for supremacy. After slotting improved predictive algorithms, improved pedal to the metal, and all hands on deck, quite frankly, my options are pretty much nonexistent. The Sarr Theln trait is near useless since the only hull heal I run is one copy of hazard emitters. The Samsar trait is useless since all hands on deck keeps my sci traits, my only heals, near or at global. Let's not even mention the Qib and Mat'ha traits. The pilot ship traits may be nice, but improved tachyon beam is the single largest shield heal available to me. It heals for far more than sci team on roughly the same cd, and has the side benefit of healing my pets. I've found TSS, because of the shield damage reduction, is comparable for survivability, but it also doesn't heal my pets, which helps in preventing them from getting sniped from random FAWs, and sometimes even a warp core breach if they're completely topped up and not hugging the exploding ship.

Does this qualify as nannying? I've explained why I have the slot open to run the trait, and why it's one of my personal survivability options, but it just happens to heal nearby allies.

The fact that I'm using the Iconian 4p set bonus also came up. The reason for that is that the rough napkin math I've done, because of my sci captain in a six weapon ship that has strong pets, indicates that the Iconian 4p is roughly dps neutral. The rom engines boost to attack patterns is much weaker for me than all of the tacs out there since I don't have attack pattern alpha. I've been running the double Zemok (well, Rugal since I'm KDF) setup that Sarcasmdetector posted in his old Recluse build, and when I talked to him about it he didn't seem like he'd change anything. In any case, the end result is that the rom engines add a few percent to the strength of my beta, and with my pets and other players debuffing, that's maybe a ~2% damage boost to all my damage. With regards to the warp core, because I run a six weapon ship, the only dps gain I get is roughly equivalent to a power transfer rate of 44%. After reading around and talking with Vel a bit, the best case scenario in terms of translation to damage boost is roughly 4.4%, however, this 4.4% applies only to the energy damage I do, which constitutes roughly 70% of my overall energy damage. This results in an average increase of ~3% from the fleet warp core.

Now, the Iconian 4p is a 33% base damage boost with roughly 25% uptime. My ship has only 3 tac consoles, and Vel tells me that translates to an ~8% boost, which averages out to only 2%, ignoring for simplicity that I can use it whenever I use sensor scan for a slightly larger effective boost. This figure, however, ignores the fact that my pets should benefit more from this buff, since I don't believe most of them are affected by all of the cat1 bonuses I'm flooded with. In addition, I "wasted" a lot of dilithium since I changed my mind between the core and the engines sometime along the line, when I was only planning to run the 3p. Given this rough napkin math, if I'm replacing the rom engines as the fourth piece, I'm already expecting to come out ahead. The picture becomes hazier when compared with the warp core situation. Because of the uncertainty with how much my pets benefit, it's quite possible that I do come out ahead. If the end result is that it's a dps neutral change, then it's still a no-brainer to run the 4p because of the group boost with no personal loss. Even in the case that it's a 1% dps loss, I do place some value in group utility, and I may convince myself to continue running it. That said, I'd be surprised if Vel had good figures to work with when figuring out how much it benefits pets, and since I only gained access to the full set two days ago, I feel it's worth testing.

In this case, testing out the impact of the 4p on my dps, does that constitute nannying as well? Hopefully I've explained why I have it equipped for selfish reasons, it just happens to buff other members of my team as well.

I'm a "selfish" player, I go into every ISA trying to get the highest dps I can. For a KDF sci, the Recluse is one of the stronger options. The weapon and console layout is suboptimal, but the strength of the pets coupled with their debuffing makes up for that apparent weakness. In my personal, limited experimentation, the Recluse is comparable to my Kar'fi (I have a 74k parse from my Kar'fi sitting around from a couple of days ago that had average plasma explosion procs). In fact, there's only one ship I see as a clear upgrade (the Narcine), though admittedly I haven't combed through literally all of the available ships. As a sci captain, my main is the only career that has no way to boost damage from my weapons, so two hangars of strong pets is basically comparable to having a fore weapon that fires with no energy cost. With that in mind, I have had trouble finding other clear upgrades outside of the Narcine. I'm also poor from engaging in the sink known as upgrading, so the Narcine is not a short term option.

So in conclusion, for using my strongest raw shield heal that happens to heal allies as well, testing out a bonus that appears to be roughly dps neutral for myself but comes with "free" group utility, and using what I believe to be one of the stronger ship options available to me, I was called out for "nannying" spencer. In fact, the environment recently has turned to the point where some are afraid to join groups I'm in because they don't want to be accused of being "nannied" to a new personal record. That's why I feel the need to ask, because from my point of view, it almost seems like having a Recluse in a run period is considered a "nannied" run, and if that's the case, I'd like to know.

I apologize if this post come off as hostile since that's not my intention; I'm genuinely confused at this point as to what constitutes a nanny run and what doesn't, so I felt the need to explain why my group utility choices were made for selfish reasons to see if that still qualified as unfair nannying. Also, if I'm misinformed about any of the points above, I'm more than open to discussing it. Especially when it comes to STO's arcane damage calculation math, it's possible that I've missed something. I've also not looked at ever single ship available, so it's quite likely I missed something there. Also, if this is considered nannying, will I be forced to make suboptimal skill/gear choices in order to continue in the dps league with my ship of choice? Or will I have to buy a new ship altogether?

Thanks in advance for clarifications, should they be incoming.
+1
#11126663 Jun 03, 2015 at 10:34 AM · Edited over 6 years ago
DPS Communit...
11 Posts
if you are referring to https://www.dropbox.com/s/8f8tm2m69ew7sod/Infected_Space_123.6k.log?dl=0 this run

then lets evaluate the run looking at alfies first post outlineing the practice of being a nanny

1: debuffing - 3 points
- arthas scott@ space eagle20 3/3
- elite tholian pets
- disruptor weaponary (maybe pen mods too) ?
- sensor scanned spheres? (hard to tell for certain but if you look at the average debuff for spheres its around -140% which is very very high)

- nmej @seddheen 3/3
- elite tholian pets
- destabliseing resonance beam
- sensor scanning

2: crowd control 3 points
- arthas scott@ space eagle20 1/3
-gravity well

- nmej @seddheen 1/3
- gravity well

3: healing 1 point
- arthas scott@ space eagle20 1/1
- healed the nannied player for 44656 was top player healed even more than himself

- nmej @seddheen 1/1
- healed nannied player for 80267

for perspecitve spencer healed himself for 132215 which is about the same as the nannys combined

4: console stacking
not possible to tell on the combat log

5: other support
most not possible to tell

so is this a nanny run imo no question that it is... is it the best nany run possible no it is not there were many things that could have been done to get higher score for spencer

but lets get something clear, WE DO NOT WANT TO BAN RECLUSES only move such runs onto a separate league so that they can be distinguished from runs not like this one and the admin team has already made the decision that this is what we are going to do as although this particular case is easy to highlight we dont want 50k players doing it just to get into 75k channel then never able to replicate the dps without the nannys so hence the admin teams decision

final thought:
WE WANT TO ENCOURAGE THIS FORM OF TEAM PLAY !
but we want the integrity of the leagues to remain intact and the best way to do both is to filter such runs away from the main table.
+0
#11126954 Jun 03, 2015 at 11:53 AM
DPS-PRIME
8 Posts
This is one of those things that I have to say is highly encouraging honestly.

When 180k was hit before the reset, I quit trying. I had just hit 76k. To get on the top I basically had to get almost 2.5 times my current damage. I had done my 76k in a group that I got at random pick, with a couple that I tended to run with normally.

In the end, there is a point where pushing our numbers higher and higher is discouraging instead of encouraging. You can remove a competitive feel when things are set high enough that they are no long conceivable in a random assortment of players on the channels.

I admire seeing the high numbers, however, when the difference is set to such a large degree in just a couple on the leader boards you are looking 10k+ of difference between areas, it isn't a close match. In the higher runs I've noticed that it's ONLY a small degree of changes that makes the difference in scoring that 10k higher run or not. IE, coordination of TF/IF or pets WFP call, or hitting those flanks, or batteries/evasive at a perfectly timed moment. My 90k run I have was shear luck running in a setup with random people, who I would easily and undoubtedly run with again for chance to do better, but at that point I'd call that a specified team setup to try to boost numbers higher. And when you are ensuring your team has certain traits, abilities, ships, etc, then you are going outside realm of a random group picking and entering a specified team setup.

The two realms should not have mixed. But the only way to control things is to see the patterns. Keep track in some way of how many or how often that one group runs together. Sure we know the basic group used by the top echelons of the leaders. And in my opinion, those always should have been in their own league to challenge people to open up and create their own teams to compete with. In the DPS day to day chasing. It's me vs everyone else essentially. I want the highest. I'm not aiming to boost your stats, thus why I don't run recluses. I want to push myself to the max with a random group of players of considerable skill. If one of my skills boosts you, well not by intention, it was a means to boost myself honestly.

Personally, I think it would be neat if there was a single group runs, and then a side on the league where you could create a team of 5 with like 2-3 alternates where your team then competes to see if they can boost one or another on some metrics similar to what we can pull that you can go to and see the high specialized runs vs the random DPS channel groups. I personally would work to create a team to do just this while still trying to get random runs in the channels to push myself in both aspects.

Some possible numbers would still be high DPS numbers, fastest times, Top single crits, along with any other metrics that could be buffed by specialized teams. Could even order by energy types used too so you can compete against other energy types rather than feeling like you have to pit Tetryon vs Antiproton.

Just my two and a half cents on this.
DPS is much more about your piloting than it is about the skills that you have. If you feel completely stuck on your DPS come visit The Pilot Review Show to see how we can aid you in beating your walls.
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#11128385 Jun 03, 2015 at 06:11 PM
DPS-75,000
2 Posts
I never claimed the run wasn't nannied at all, I simply had questions about clarifying my being labeled a nanny Recluse. For the record, Arthas actually went to the wrong side so Spencer didn't benefit from Arthas's debuffs for maybe half of the fight or so, but that's irrelevant to my questions anyway.

#11126663 Agresiel wrote:

if you are referring to https://www.dropbox.com/s/8f8tm2m69ew7sod/Infected_Space_123.6k.log?dl=0 this run

then lets evaluate the run looking at alfies first post outlineing the practice of being a nanny

- nmej @seddheen 3/3
- elite tholian pets
- destabliseing resonance beam
- sensor scanning

- nmej @seddheen 1/3
- gravity well

- nmej @seddheen 1/1
- healed nannied player for 80267

for perspecitve spencer healed himself for 132215 which is about the same as the nannys combined

4: console stacking
not possible to tell on the combat log

5: other support
most not possible to tell

so is this a nanny run imo no question that it is... is it the best nany run possible no it is not there were many things that could have been done to get higher score for spencer

but lets get something clear, WE DO NOT WANT TO BAN RECLUSES only move such runs onto a separate league so that they can be distinguished from runs not like this one and the admin team has already made the decision that this is what we are going to do as although this particular case is easy to highlight we dont want 50k players doing it just to get into 75k channel then never able to replicate the dps without the nannys so hence the admin teams decision

final thought:
WE WANT TO ENCOURAGE THIS FORM OF TEAM PLAY !
but we want the integrity of the leagues to remain intact and the best way to do both is to filter such runs away from the main table.



Regarding the first point, Elite Tholian Mesh Weavers are the highest dps pet I can bring, so using anything else is a personal dps loss.

With regards to destabilizing resonance beam, I've tried the four popular options in the lt. sci slot, those options being TBR, SSV, Tyken's, and DRB. Tyken's is by far the lowest dps of the three, and my gut feeling is that the power drain wasn't increasing my dps by a corresponding amount, so I've ruled that out. The other three are extremely close to each other in raw dps, SSV is slightly on top (by an average of maybe 100-200 dps) and DRB is on the bottom by a small margin (again, an average of 100-200 dps.) All of my numbers are of course rough, since there are so many factors involved, however, they are all close to each other in just the dps each skill brings. TBR has the small downside of blowing spawning spheres away on the sides. SSV is annoying to use in its current state since there's no UI indicator for when it's in teleport mode or actual usage mode, at least none that I've been able to see. DRB has the upside of serving as an aoe damage resistance debuff, so given that the damage of all three skills is extremely close, it seems logical, when maximizing my own dps, to choose the one with the slight upside.

Sensor scan is one of my abilities as a sci captain, including that in the list of "nannying practice" is somewhat inconsistent, unless you want to start including fire on my mark for tac captains. It's fair to list it in the list of nannying utility that a sci captain brings, however, to automatically classify a sci captain in a Recluse as a "nanny" Recluse for using sensor scan is rather extreme.

Addressing gravity well, my options for the lt. com. sci slot are GW, TBR, SSV, DRB, and Tyken's. I've ruled out Tyken's for the same reason above. I don't need another copy of DRB since I believe AHoD keeps it on global. That leaves GW, TBR, and SSV. TBR and SSV have already been discussed so I won't rehash those points. GW tends to have lower dps than those skills, however, as a Recluse using DBBs, I'm probably one of the few people that suffers more from excess scattering of spheres than anybody else, even Scimitar pilots and their "slow" turning ships. Therefore I chose to run GW to compensate for my own personal piloting deficiencies and help my dps.

I've already addressed where some of the healing came from in my previous post, but as a quick summary, my strongest personal shield heal happens to heal allies within range of the target. The rest of the healing came from the Undine T5 rep bubble, which I'm dropping primarily for myself since I do enough damage and stay unhealthily close to targets to take quite the beating myself.

I'm not running the Recluse console.

Addressing the "other utilities" list for point 5, I do not use team batteries, nor did I even know they existed until Alfie's post. I do use photonic fleet. That explanation would pretty much be word for word the same as sensor scan, so I won't rehash it. As for huddling together, yes, me and Spencer were probably in range of each other on the right side to share the Iconian 3p buff. ISA's not exactly a huge map and we went to the same side, so I'd hope that's pretty much expected. I am currently testing out the Iconian 4p, and I've already explained my reasoning for that in the previous post, but the summary is that napkin math indicates it's roughly a dps neutral setup for me that results in a groupwide gain, and MMO logic dictates that you go with the groupwide gain in that situation.

And let's be honest here, basing channel invites on only runs that don't include Recluses will result in a de facto ban on Recluse runs in the channels (for ISA). The exclusion of Recluses is already starting a little now with the overly negative attitude toward Recluses in the channels, the change you've decided on, depending on the specifics, will only cement the death of Recluses.

I want to continue flying my Recluse for dps channel runs, so I'd like to know what I have to do to not be considered a nanny. Do I have to swap out my sci boff abilities for, what I believe, are suboptimal alternatives to my personal dps? Do I have to use suboptimal pets? Do I have to stop hitting my sci captain skills as well? Do I have to stop using the Undine T5 rep bubble and hope I don't die a horrible death in the places that I generally use it? Or is there legitimately nothing I can do to shed the nanny label?

Again, I apologize if this post sounds hostile. Based on channel chatter I get the feeling this is a hot button issue, and my goal is not to attack people who feel one way or another. As the person whose participation in the dps league is probably the most affected by what's considered "nannying" and what's not, or if all Recluse runs, regardless of whether the Recluse is a nanny or not, will end up in the segregated list, I hope you can understand my desire for clarification on these points and the new incoming policy.
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