Notify Message
Forums
#11129050 Jun 03, 2015 at 10:44 PM
DPS-75,000
10 Posts
What if I take my engineer, take the recluse, and make him a tank?

No GW, no SS, no cross-healing (outside of EF which I use for myself), but APB3x2, mesh weavers, and pulling aggro. I think survivability creep's up to the point where it'll work again, and I hear tachyon beam might get nerfed soon-ish, so it's totally a legit build I'd fly everywhere.

Just wondering if that'd be called a 'nanny' or not; if I can pull it off, I'll probably fly it either way.

Is the simplest solution to just move any run with elite mesh weavers in it into that separate ranking so that you don't answer questions like this?
CLR—Infected Space[2:30]— Dmg(DPS) —Vel 11,208,739(74,725) - No recluses, no healers, just me tanking.

The game's best wiki.

Game's highest dps tank and all-time engineering dps record.
+1
#11129115 Jun 03, 2015 at 11:12 PM · Edited 6 years ago
DPS Admins
31 Posts
We are currently in the process of testing various methods of detecting/filtering out runs that we think should be on a separate table and runs than are valid for invite purposes. Another possible mechanism we might apply is to look at the record for each player individually, rather than filter out the entire run.

In principle, we want all DPS records that have unduly benefited from nannying practices in a separate table (recluse nannies tend to be the biggest offender, but they are not the only ones). Testing is currently underway to determine appropriate methodologies and thresholds.

Where possible I would actually like DPS records obtained by recluse pilots to remain in the invite table regardless of what they run themselves (provided they aren't being carried by another nanny) - but again it depends on the results of our testing and what is practical, and how we can differentiate things. Picking up the weavers is easy, the reason we are doing so much hard work to test other methodologies is exactly because we don't want to remove them, or any runs in their presence, as of course.
+2
#11130564 Jun 04, 2015 at 10:28 AM · Edited 6 years ago
DPS-50,000
16 Posts
#11129115 Alfie wrote:

In principle, we want all DPS records that have unduly benefited from nannying practices in a separate table (recluse nannies tend to be the biggest offender, but they are not the only ones). Testing is currently underway to determine appropriate methodologies and thresholds.



(Bolded for emphasis)

I am totally with you on the Nanny Recluses, specifically - their contributions to DPS "inflation" (for lack of better term) are obvious and well-documented.

But I think, on some level, I share Seddheen's concern - it's is too strong a word, but I'll use it for lack of a better one - about how "nanny practices" are classified. And look, I know that you and the rest of the admins are way smarter than me, and have a much deeper understanding of the underlying game mechanics than I do, but straight appeals to authority make me uncomfortable, so I do think it's crucial that we, as a community, get to see where (and why) the clear bright lines get drawn, because ultimately, there's a very, very long spectrum of team support practices - some of which are obvious, some less so - that aren't so dissimilar from Recluse nannying, even if they may not be as effective as Recluse nannying. The obvious questions - but far from the only ones - I'll have are, what threshold (or sources) of debuffing turns a run into a "nannying practice" run? What about straight-up tanking? (If someone else is receiving 75% total incoming damage over the course of your run, that's about as effective as having a healer babysit your run.)

(For all I know, you're planning on doing this, anyway, in which case, never mind! - again, you're a smart group of people, you have a tough job, and you've never failed to do it well, so I expect nothing less. :))



Atem@iusasset: Fed Eng
+0
#11130642 Jun 04, 2015 at 10:50 AM
13 Posts
Whoah... what's this? Guys, really? :D
Is it so important for you to split the league in order to ban and reposition what you call "nanny recluses runs" for invites purpose? What do you gain from this change? What is the problem in helping teammates with dedicated builds in order to improve specific performances? It's like calling a pvp tacscort a "cheater one" only because he can kill you in 1s with the teammate's subnuke. C'mon :D
If i remember well, STO is an MMO, and as a "social game", it includes a word called "teamwork", and it can be done with different configurations and setups, regardless of recluses. Good luck on tracking them all :)
Maybe you refer to teamwork's idea with a distorted pov that i don't understand at all, to be honest. A good player can "nanny" another player into 75k or more without a proper "nanny" build or mindset, just only playing for fun with his mesh weavers and a double apb build, healing who need as any good "teamworker" in any build and any ship can do.
You can solve this with proper comments on the league table :P just saying "no recluses involved" or "recluses run" etc, and who cares. Let's discuss on more important topics, not on this unnecessary philosophical thoughts. Imho of course :D

#11129050 Vel wrote:

What if I take my engineer, take the recluse, and make him a tank?

No GW, no SS, no cross-healing (outside of EF which I use for myself), but APB3x2, mesh weavers, and pulling aggro. I think survivability creep's up to the point where it'll work again, and I hear tachyon beam might get nerfed soon-ish, so it's totally a legit build I'd fly everywhere.

Just wondering if that'd be called a 'nanny' or not; if I can pull it off, I'll probably fly it either way.

Is the simplest solution to just move any run with elite mesh weavers in it into that separate ranking so that you don't answer questions like this?


Eh, this is a good question. Reading alfie, they should move even your example run in another league. The problem is that the "demarcation line" between a nanny run and a not-nanny run is so thin that it will only create problems to determine what is ok and what not after this hypothetical change. As i said, good luck on tracking every single run, because i think you are just complicating your life (idk if this is understandable in english :P).
Anyway, don't misunderstand me, i'm not attacking you guys, but i see this idea really unnecessary.\
>>>CSI<<<
+1
#11131477 Jun 04, 2015 at 02:45 PM · Edited over 5 years ago
DPS Admins
31 Posts
OK, first off, the reference to "nanny practices" - maybe I used too broad a term, and only because at this point we are still deciding what's in and what's out - so I didn't want to be too specific. If there's any one item we are most concerned with atm, it's the level of debuffing on the run. Other factors we are thinking about, but probably their effect pales in comparison, so we may not worry about them.

Secondly, a simple analogy to explain why this is necessary.

Imagine you're taking an entrance exam to a university. The university will have to set the standard on which they assess your abilities, to see if you qualify to study the degree you have selected. As part of this degree, you need to be at a certain skill level to interact properly with your fellow classmates, to study at the same level.

One rule might be, you have to switch your mobile phone off when you take the exam (so you can't call mom for help if you get stuck on a question) - after all, they are interested in your ability/knowledge, not your mom's. After you take the exam you can call your mom as often as you like, the school is not saying talking to your mom is bad, or that you can never call your mom again! They do it so they can assess your capabilities better.

So they enforce this by monitoring your phone logs, and if you called your mom more than, say, twice during the exam, they don't accept your answer sheet.

Why do they do this?

- To encourage students to learn the subject material and gain the knowledge themselves, rather than rely on someone else.

- To prevent lazy students who don't have the knowledge and who calls their mommy to solve every little problem, from studying the degree - so they don't interfere with the learning activities of good students who actually studied for the exam and want to learn with others at their level.

- To prevent lazy student from getting a higher score on the test than good students who did study hard.

- So the good students don't get discouraged from studying when they see someone who did not study hard get a better score than them, and who shows off their higher score to them.

I think the idea is pretty simple, don't you? Has everyone here never taken an entrance exam in real life?

Remember, we are here to help and encourage people to study our art.

Do you guys seriously think getting 2 recluses to carry you into 30K is fine? If so why do we have the channels separated at all? Let's all lump it into one like PESTF.



+1
#11131847 Jun 04, 2015 at 04:28 PM
13 Posts
#11131477 Alfie wrote:


...


Alfie, see, the problem is that you are comparing an exam with... a game. What happened to you guys? Me and evial helped all of you, literally, a lot of times with our recluses in the past, and now you consider using them "a cheat", when they are a normal part of the game, isolating them on another league for a silly case...
It's not like the exploit when ALL OF US used the pre-betaing on pets... well, let's leave out this story :)
The real question is: why this is happening right now and not when they released the recluse/you opened dps channels? What has changed recently? ;)
>>>CSI<<<
+0
#11131917 Jun 04, 2015 at 04:46 PM · Edited over 5 years ago
DPS-50,000
16 Posts
#11131477 Alfie wrote:



Do you guys seriously think getting 2 recluses to carry you into 30K is fine? If so why do we have the channels separated at all? Let's all lump it into one like PESTF.





No, it is not. But that's a straw man, and not what I (specifically) am talking about. All I'm saying is that the bright lines need to be made explicitly clear so players know exactly what conditions are considered acceptable for a qualifying run.


Atem@iusasset: Fed Eng
+1
#11132331 Jun 04, 2015 at 06:27 PM
DPS-50,000
3 Posts
My recluse is really shit, is that ok?
x17 elitist pig.
+0
#11132816 Jun 04, 2015 at 09:15 PM · Edited 6 years ago
DPS Admins
31 Posts
#11131917 Atem@iusasset wrote:

#11131477 Alfie wrote:



Do you guys seriously think getting 2 recluses to carry you into 30K is fine? If so why do we have the channels separated at all? Let's all lump it into one like PESTF.





No, it is not. But that's a straw man, and not what I (specifically) am talking about. All I'm saying is that the bright lines need to be made explicitly clear so players know exactly what conditions are considered acceptable for a qualifying run.


I fully understand where you're coming from, and as I indicated, we are still deciding what those lines are, which will depend on the results of extensive testing that is underway.
+0
#11132832 Jun 04, 2015 at 09:20 PM · Edited over 5 years ago
DPS Admins
31 Posts
#11131847 Nandos wrote:

#11131477 Alfie wrote:


...


Alfie, see, the problem is that you are comparing an exam with... a game. What happened to you guys? Me and evial helped all of you, literally, a lot of times with our recluses in the past, and now you consider using them "a cheat", when they are a normal part of the game, isolating them on another league for a silly case...
It's not like the exploit when ALL OF US used the pre-betaing on pets... well, let's leave out this story :)
The real question is: why this is happening right now and not when they released the recluse/you opened dps channels? What has changed recently? ;)


"Q1: Does this mean you want to ban recluse nanny records?

A1: No, we just want to separate them out [I'm talking about specialised nanny runs, not general support class builds] - so that we have a single table where everyone's DPS is assessed on a reasonably (not perfectly) consistent basis, for channel invite purposes. The number pushing can be done elsewhere. I like to think we are here to create and maintain a community where learning about how to DPS and sharing knowledge is the primary goal and objective. Having the top of the table being seen as accessable (as long as they put in the effort to improve their piloting skills and build design) by the members in the lower channels is very important. A table that members can use and trust to roughly gauge where they are in terms of relative performance against their peers helps tremendously in encouraging people to improve their skills. People should also not be pressured to forsake the basics of DPSing and be forced to focus on finding friends who can nanny them, nor should they be alienated from recognition at the top of our rankings simply because they can't or don't run in specialised scenarios. I literally shake my head when I see "lf 2 recluses for 30K channel tryout".

We tried the "anything goes" approach pre Delta, the top of the league was turned into a recluse carnival, admittedly I was one the culprits as well - things didn't work out very well, competition was stifled, people lost interest and effectively quit/did not participate in the league. The current league is trying to, and failing miserably at, accommodating two very different competitions, and it is having a detrimental effect on efforts to promote the type of community that the owners of the channels are trying to build. The disparity between the two competitions also gives too much opportunity for misconduct such as DPS shaming - Seriously, WTH is the purpose of telling someone in DPS public that your fleet support does 20K DPS (without disclosing the basis on which it was done) or telling a torpedo specialist giving out valid torp advice than he won't beat a certain recluse assisted torp record that way (and he wasn't even trying to)? [Do I need to spell out who was doing this?]"
+0
#11133570 Jun 05, 2015 at 03:53 AM
DPS-30,000
4 Posts
OK. I'm little confused right now. My main is Sci (using Wells no Recluse!!) with PartGen build + torpedoes (no energy weapons). I use DRB, Sensor Scan, Sensor Analysis, GW, Kemo (in combination with Spread) and TBR. With active Command Spec (right now i using Intel) i have another debuff (Achilles' heel). I have 3 heals - HE, ST, A2Sif - and I use them for me and my team as well.

So i have one simple question: It´s this build a "nanny"?

Thanks for answers and sorry for my english :(
+0
#11133596 Jun 05, 2015 at 04:12 AM · Edited over 5 years ago
DPS Admins
31 Posts
It depends on exactly how it is used and how much it affects a particular player on a particular run - unless you are specifically carrying a particular player with the co-ordinated assistance of other team members , and especially since you don't have elite tholian weavers - you probably won't cross the "threshold" (which we are still trying to work out btw - give us some slack, we're working hard to minimise the impact on fringe cases, recent events haven't actually given us a lot of time to spare - it's not like we've already implemented something without disclosure).

No particular ship or build is a "nanny" - it's all about intent and how it is used, and the ultimate impact it had on someone else's DPS.
+0
#11133677 Jun 05, 2015 at 04:53 AM
DPS-30,000
4 Posts
I am sincerely concerned about the determination of any thresholds. Mainly for debuffing and cross-healing. I use most of my debuff for my purpose only. But it´s team game. On the map are the other 4 players and I can make a mistake and my attack after debuff fails (which affects my DPS) ... now i could cross "threshold" and whole run will be devalued.

I understand that you're working on a solution and you´re testing various scenarios, but as a Sci I simply afraid of the impact thus "thresholds". Do not take this as a criticism, because I know that no "thresholds" has not yet been established.
+0
#11133779 Jun 05, 2015 at 05:39 AM
DPS Admins
31 Posts
And we are working hard to ensure people like you are not affected - nothing has been cast in stone yet.
+1
#11135983 Jun 05, 2015 at 07:52 PM
DPS-50,000
16 Posts
I'm not going to retract my previous posts on this issue, but I would like to acknowledge that I strongly support actions taken to preserve the integrity and structure of the current league meta/equilibrium.

When the deliberations are framed in that context, all of my a priori concerns immediately dissolve.


Atem@iusasset: Fed Eng
+0
#11146314 Jun 08, 2015 at 06:55 PM
DPS-75,000
5 Posts
#11126663 Agresiel wrote:



1: debuffing - 3 points
- arthas scott@ space eagle20 3/3
- elite tholian pets
- disruptor weaponary (maybe pen mods too) ?
- sensor scanned spheres? (hard to tell for certain but if you look at the average debuff for spheres its around -140% which is very very high)




Thanks , Agresiel but, since I am a trekkie, each toon of mine bears my nickname and a second name which is a clear indication of his career : in this case, it's Scott and you all know who Montgomery Scott is so ... this toon is an engineer.
+0
#11146631 Jun 08, 2015 at 08:43 PM
DPS-PRIME
5 Posts
I think the only thing unique about a recluse is its pet. Everything else can be replicated in certain ships from buffing, healing to CC. A player can still nannie a non recluse ship.

In non-recluse nannie runs, how are you going to detect team buffs or if it is even a nannie run?

Or is a definition of nannie run simply dedicated healing regardless of what ship you are? Thus, it is not just the recluse that fits this description.

If it is just the recluse pets that is the problem, why not use base dps?
+0
#11147132 Jun 09, 2015 at 12:49 AM
DPS-75,000
2 Posts
I think there is nothing inherently wrong with using a Recluse on your captain. The goal of many in the DPS channels is to maximize our dps through improving our understanding of how things work and better piloting. If you find a recluse suits your play style and abilities you don't have to throw it away because it's a "cheater ship" or something. If you pull 30k in your recluse and respond to a 30k run, bring it without fear of being reviled.

I understand the thought behind maintaining the integrity of the channels, that hasn't changed since I've been a member. If you respond in a 30k or 50k channel, you need to bring a toon and ship capable of putting out the dps for the channel you responded to. I think this is where the integrity issue lies. If you got into the channel with a team that buffed you to the point of crossing a certain barrier but can't get close to that barrier in a random group then you shouldn't be joining groups in that channel. If you require 2 recluse in a run to break 50 or 75k then it is just dishonest and counter to the channels' ideals to join groups knowing you won't be able to carry your own weight.

It has been stated that team play is encouraged, and I would love to know enough people in game to set up a team that can practice something for hours until you all get everything just so. That sounds awesome!! :) I do understand however that this is not representative of an average run and should not be put out as something you can do all the time. It would be great if the honor system would work and people would just post in the comments that it was a team run or pre-made run done with lots of practice. It doesn't invalidate the run, or the possibly record dps. It simply lets everyone know that this is what can be accomplished with a full team dedicated to practicing and achieving the best they can do. If the admins want this on a separate table that's great as it really is not representative of what an individual can bring to a team, more so what a team can bring to an individual.


Solo ISA is also not evil imo. I think it's a fun way to challenge yourself, and to learn and grow as a player. I recorded mine for review (to see where I can do better) and to post for my fleet mates to peruse. It's a great little ego boost to have this accomplishment and I intend to keep trying to do better, try new ships and ideas. It is a fun challenge to set for myself.
+0
#11147379 Jun 09, 2015 at 03:00 AM
DPS Admins
31 Posts
#11146631 paxdawn wrote:

I think the only thing unique about a recluse is its pet. Everything else can be replicated in certain ships from buffing, healing to CC. A player can still nannie a non recluse ship.

In non-recluse nannie runs, how are you going to detect team buffs or if it is even a nannie run?

Or is a definition of nannie run simply dedicated healing regardless of what ship you are? Thus, it is not just the recluse that fits this description.

If it is just the recluse pets that is the problem, why not use base dps?



Hi Paxdawn,

Thank you for your questions. The official DPS channel admin meeting on the recluse issue covers all the questions you have mentioned above. I invite you to listen to the full audio recording of the meeting which has been posted here: http://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/38onqh/a_wizard_of_sto_presents_full_disclosure/

Cheers,

Alfie
+0